The following is an excerpt from a conversation I had with a friend yesterday. It was carried out over instant messenger, so punctuation and capitalization is very loose. As well there are some minor edits and redactions. At any rate, I'd love to hear some other thoughts on this stuff.
Friend: i am still not sure about how the bible works. is it a tool for believers to use to get their own way. is it semi historical and allegorical and gives us a guide for christian living? is it something we can use like magic or out of context to make ourselves feel better about the human predicament . i am reading the text these days a little bit different than i used to. i am not reading it as if it was written to me like so many seem to do but reading it to learn about the character of god and see how it describes right living. what are your thoughts
Me: i find it to be all over the place - not one coherent book written by god (even if via human mediums or whatever). some history, some allegory, some very useful wisdom, some utter tripe that have to have just been dreamed up by the author. the OT seems to portray a different god than the NT in my opinion
Friend: i somewhat agree
Me: and when i look at the whole of it, god's whole master plan, i have to think it's a really goofy way to do things, not logical at all i don't think. maybe god just isn't logical? i don't know...
Friend: i dont think god is a robot who has to be logical if that were the case worship science. that doesnt work for me. i expect god to be. but i am not sure as to what extent that be means. i put my faith in jesus and the idea of gods kingdom but that is about it. trying to connect with god but find that i am just as enlightened when i pray as when i meditate and clear my mind. i don't hear any voice other than my own. i would expect that god has a voice that could be differentiated from my own. thoughts?
Me: honestly for me, i think about all my "god experiences" and i think those were really just things that i made happen and that i made into reality by putting a spin on them or by self-fulfilling prophecy. i don't know that i can really separate those things out into an objective reality outside my own head. i.e. i think it's all in one's head. so you can make it what you want. that's why there are so many religions and interpretations. if there was one objective god-reality then people could all agree on it for the most part, but that is so far from the actual case.
Me: i've been watching this series of documentaries on netflix call the nature of existence. really interesting all the different perspectives there are in the world about reality, god, spirituality, etc. etc.
Friend: see i am going to this small group and we have been talking about the john 15 scriptures of vine and abiding stuff. my thought is that this is being said to the disciples not me. i just don't get how we can take something so out of context and apply it to our lives and say things like god will prune me if i do not bare much fruit. i can get the idea of the bible being inspired and used for teaching and directing but to assume that these things that i read are written to speak to me is kind of crazy. at one moment i can believe the scriptures to be saying one thing and some time later be able to interpret them differently. historical context needs to be applied. the idea that God's word is personally guiding my situation is kind of funny. what if i am not of sound mind and really needy and start believing that god is speaking directly to me as scripture makes address to others in the context of the writing? it leaves so much conjecture and so much open eneded interpretation and doesnt make sense. if it can mean this thing and then that thing seems spooky. does it mean this or that. you know what i am getting at.
Me: yes, christians seem to be able to very casually can say that something like the pruning bit of scripture is for them but the "women shouldn't speak in church" thing isn't. what's with that? so some of scripture is not inspired by god? which bits were then?
Friend: now when paul talks about thinking on things that are praise worthy and good report. this is instruction that is and can be used in the modern moment. it makes sense to me. but some of the other stuff in the scriptures just does not. other things paul writes is a little goofy too. like gender roles stuff. hmm and slaves. dont forget the slave be good to your masters or something...
Me: christians seem to generally choose some scripture to keep and some to brush aside. i don't know that anyone really believes and applies all of it. at that point aren't you just creating your own religion and your own version of god? not to mention the varying interpretations of any scripture that is kept in the mix. i guess for me i'm looking for some objective reality that i can align myself with and i don't find that in the bible. see i know i can't fully trust myself - my particular spin on reality isn't necessarily real or true. i am selfish and biased. but so is everyone else. who can i trust?
Friend: interpretation seems very subjective. i don't like how it can mean this thing to you and have a total different meaning to me. it either means what it says or the story has a meaning . why all the mystery. i believe in the Jesus movement and that he showed us the way we to gain forgiveness but john also forgave sins at the beginning of mark. it is either we do not have to have our sins forgiven by the blood/sacrifice or we do. Jesus forgave sins as well before he died without sacrifice. it seems a little odd to me.
Friend: is scripture open to subjective (personal-ized) interpretation or is it to be interpreted in the context it was written in?
Me: so it makes it seem like the exact wording of the text is pretty important - like legal writing. but we know that minor modifications have been made to the text as it's been copied over the centuries. and then translations of course complicate that situation further. it's all a very fuzy business, lacking the precision that i really want to see
Friend: understand the story is what i think is most important and looking at pauls writings in essence i guess.
Friend: see hebrews 4:12 is the argument that many christians use to say the scriptures are alive. ... this i can get on board with. the holy spirit guides us into deeper understanding not the scriptures interpretted by me through my lens of disfunction just a thought.
Me: its a good thought. the only question is what is that really like? how do you know what's the holy spirit vs your imagination or your own internal voice?
I understand the frustration of wanting clarity and not getting it, but eventually I came to a place where I could say, “God, I don’t understand this (or even like it), but I trust that you are loving and good and will judge rightly.” Like I said the other night, my salvation does not depend on whether or not I correctly interpret the context of women speaking in the church. I know this because I know God….I don’t necessarily understand everything, but I know his nature. Why is it so hard to figure out? I have no clue!! But, I’ve come to believe there is a good reason for it. God wants us to seek him, which doesn’t happen when everything is obvious. When I look at all of the searching I’ve done and all that I have learned, it has helped me talk to others who also have questions. Plus, clear understanding does not guarantee obedience.
ReplyDeleteUntil you have a firm belief in God and in Christ, your questions of Biblical authority will always be there. It’s out of order to say the Bible has to meet my standard of perfection before I can believe that God exists and Jesus is Lord. I know you believe God exists, but frankly, “Agnostic Theism” is the first step towards Atheism. Again, even if you assume the Bible isn’t perfect you still have to answer the question of “Who was Jesus?” What is the evidence that Jesus was or was not who he said? You asked if the Biblical authors can be trusted and the answer is on a secular level they can be trusted as much as any historical document from that time. To say otherwise is to disagree with the vast majority of scholars….not that the scholars’ agreement is required, but it helps!
So, here are my questions for you:
1. Do you trust that God is loving and good and will judge rightly?
2. Who was Jesus?
a. What evidence supports your position?
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And He said to him, “‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ 38 This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ 40 On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.” Matthew 22:36-39 (NASB)
The rest are just details.
Karen
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ReplyDeleteThere is a lot going on here. So a couple of thoughts... The passages firstly must mean what it meant to the people it is written to at the time it was written. There may be additional meaning as with some prophesy or illustrative events that foreshadow that would not be obvious to the readers at the time. (Abraham sacrificing his son comes to mind) As far as personalized interpretation... I think the Holy Spirit can use a passage that has been read to illuminate an issue with the reader. This does not change the meaning of the passage, but is a way in which God communicates with us individually.
ReplyDeleteI am going to zone in on one part of the conversation.
"so it makes it seem like the exact wording of the text is pretty important - like legal writing. but we know that minor modifications have been made to the text as it's been copied over the centuries. and then translations of course complicate that situation further. it's all a very fuzy business, lacking the precision that i really want to see"
This statement gnawed at me for sometime and I couldn't figure out why. If you really wanted precision, you'd have to go and learn Greek and Hebrew... but the Bible isn't written like a legal document at all. Most of it is written as a narrative. More specifically Jesus didn't talk in legalese. He talked in parables. Fuzzy stuff indeed. So why is that? I think Jesus was very intentional in what He did. So there has to be a reason for it. I think it all comes down to relationship. Jesus uses a lot of relationship terms... Father, Mother, brothers, friends. In the end what is being asked of us as believers is not to be a bunch of rule followers but God lovers. Children to the Father, friends and siblings with the Son. Co-heirs with Christ.